tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post1464641009999874051..comments2023-08-24T09:22:20.836-04:00Comments on Developing Upwards: The Narratives Around Visual ProgrammingCalvin Spealmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07161631946662126734noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-24517037526695990382014-02-08T22:42:42.351-05:002014-02-08T22:42:42.351-05:00What about biztalk orchestration/pipeline/mapping ...What about biztalk orchestration/pipeline/mapping creators. Mostly graphical. I would say they're useless..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09991847381010719791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-44914317368411725132014-02-08T22:31:48.413-05:002014-02-08T22:31:48.413-05:00" We can't start developers on a path wit..." We can't start developers on a path with these kinds of walls."<br /><br />I find this to be a specious argument. Many kids of my generation, going to middle school in the early 90s, started out writing BASIC programs on the outdated but ubiquitous Apple IIe. We didn't have the tools to write software for the newer Macs or PCs in the computer lab, but that didn't stop us from experimenting and having fun. We didn't even have the manual to the BASIC interpreter, and the Internet hadn't been invented yet. We had to learn the BASIC command syntax by word of mouth, and peeked and poked our way to interesting results. We took strange, complex machines, learned their secrets, and gained control of them. We were no longer users, we were programmers. The wall is what makes you climb, and when you learn to love climbing then no wall can stop you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-88687829388751141312014-02-08T19:27:31.655-05:002014-02-08T19:27:31.655-05:00You write better than you think.
The TL;DR crowd ...You write better than you think.<br /><br />The TL;DR crowd wants everything to be on YouTube.<br /><br />But who built YouTube?<br /><br />What sort of documentation supports the operation of YouTube?<br /><br />How much information can be conveyed effectively by colors, shades, and shapes?<br /><br />Food for thought.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-26891128812559477572014-02-08T13:31:53.069-05:002014-02-08T13:31:53.069-05:00I think the reason behind visual programming being...I think the reason behind visual programming being considered not for "real programming" is because of its limitations. You don't give a blacksmith a wooden hammer just cause someone found it was easier to use than a metal one. I've used visual programming tools in the past, mostly blocks and such. My biggest concern with visual programming such as that is the mouse-keyboard rotation. Every time i'd need to add a variable, i would have to go to my mouse to do so, then start typing the name. If i wanted to choose a type i would have to click a combo list, etc etc.. It is a lot easier to define a variable name and such then simply hit enter, no need to mouse your hand off the keyboard, onto the mouse then reorient the mouse to the needed position. Taking that into consideration there is only one answer for me, text based all the way. That is to say visualizing an algorithm isn't needed, simply the two should remain separate. Using diagrams and such to interpret the idea and using a programming language to implement it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-51342082244477085132014-02-08T13:19:02.695-05:002014-02-08T13:19:02.695-05:00Not to be overly negative but your arguments have ...Not to be overly negative but your arguments have serious flaws.<br /><br />First, to add to John M. Camara's comment: Python, pygame and PyInstaller are all multi-platform which actually makes it fairly easy to distribute to your friends who are on different platforms. Additionally you mention switching to "web-based coding" ... clearly you lack experience in this field and are not familiar with the unholy nightmare that is cross-browser compatibility.<br /><br />Second, onto Narrative 2; "UNIX vs IDE culture" is just plain wrong as there are many popular full featured IDEs that work on UNIX-like operating systems (Eclipse is probably the most popular). I develop cross platform application and regularly use both Windows & Linux. I personally prefer to use a powerful text editor instead of a full blown IDE. And that's all it is; a personal preference. I hear arguments from the other side (the IDE guys)all the time, saying that I should just use notepad and that I can't possibly be productive, but you really have to understand UNIX culture and history to get our workflow. We use small tools that do specific jobs very well. Using one large tool for everything goes against the way we have been working for decades, and for us is ultimately unproductive.<br /><br />As per IDLE, it's more a proof of concept than anything else. It is not a robust editor that receives frequent updates. It is quite outdated and has many known bugs and limitations which is why the vast majority of Python developers don't recommend it.<br /><br />Lastly, Narrative 3. The "real developers" are the people making real-world applications that are used on a daily basis, that much should be obvious. You ask who gets to make that decision. WE DO! Developers build communities, we know each other, and we know who the key contributors are.<br /><br />The problem that we are having with "Visual Programming" is that we currently have out tried and true traditional method for building software that clearly works. Along comes non-programmers and less savvy programmers who are saying that our methods are broken/too complex/incomplete and that programming should be easy and visual. Visual programming is an interesting concept and has its uses, but until it has demonstrated clear value or advantages over our current methods, there's no reason for us to want to switch.<br /><br />LittleBigPlanet: Good point, its a really a great example and more people who want to advocate Visual Development should reference it.<br /><br />Your last comment is truly out of line; both insulting and incredibly ignorant. As you sit at your computer making this blog post, that will be sent as packets through many computers, to get to a server cluster which will then share the information with people all around the world you have audacity to imply that the art of creating software is still in the prototyping stage? Did you even think before you made that comment? You have just downplayed decades of work by millions of people with out whom you wouldn't even be able to make this blog post. That sir, is truly disgusting.Marionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-31220378910623982432014-02-08T09:48:13.426-05:002014-02-08T09:48:13.426-05:00IDLE? That's your example of an IDE?
It's...IDLE? That's your example of an IDE?<br /><br />It's a terminal window wrapped in some GUI chrome. It doesn't even have any toolbars.<br /><br />C'mon mate. What about something like PyCharm or Pytools for Visual Studio?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-82142011304725676842014-02-08T09:32:27.740-05:002014-02-08T09:32:27.740-05:00To expound, these narratives have been around for ...To expound, these narratives have been around for a few decades and are rather well understood until a new young whippersnapper comes along. Basically, a GUI complicates about as much as it simplifies, simple task that don't require speed or control could be done with scratch or the lego mindstorm software, but then the people writing those programs discover macro/script languages and realize it's not worth the hassle of of the GUI. I just went through this last year with a lego robotics team I coached. The kids made a line following algorithm in the GUI and it worked. I made one in C and it worked a factor or two faster. Several of those kids still program this year and want the speed and control. Not that a visual language couldn't do that but the intent of the programmer becomes lost in the module, icon, componen, or whatever the object is called.<br /><br />Notice the web is run with text based source many times written by hand, not the output from a GUI.<br /><br />I've got to go take a nap, so GET OFF MY LAWN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-64095655653428242152014-02-08T02:10:21.330-05:002014-02-08T02:10:21.330-05:00It's called Simulink, son. It is used in cars ...It's called Simulink, son. It is used in cars errday.dr drenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-17690378779641111502014-02-08T00:35:55.251-05:002014-02-08T00:35:55.251-05:00Unfortunately that doesn't work for the millio...Unfortunately that doesn't work for the millions of kids with iPads where as web programming doesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-80231623949891493432014-02-07T22:11:33.039-05:002014-02-07T22:11:33.039-05:00Extension to Narrative 1: Learning how to program ...Extension to Narrative 1: Learning how to program also includes learning how to distribute. <br /><br />Some free tools which can be used to create a Windows installer for Python + Pygame programs:<br />- py2exe: http://www.py2exe.org/<br />- Nullsoft NSIS: http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Main_Page<br />- HM NIS Edit: http://hmne.sourceforge.net/<br /><br />Tutorial: http://www.cs.iupui.edu/~aharris/pygame/Appendix_C.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21332048.post-48605122817889956112014-02-01T11:23:21.622-05:002014-02-01T11:23:21.622-05:00Narrative 1 can be resolved by using pyinstaller -...Narrative 1 can be resolved by using pyinstaller - http://www.pyinstaller.org/John M. Camarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14679717457363068339noreply@blogger.com