Skip to main content

Undefined Python

Will McGugan has a post about the smell of languages, using an example of code from C that is actually completely undefined: no one knows what it should do. The code in question is this:

int main() { int i = 5; i = ++i + ++i; printf ("%d", i); }
One of the commenters talks about how some constructs in Python can be undefined, but I disagree. My response is below.

There can certainly be some cases where you aren’t sure about things involved in Python, but nothing undefined in the sense that C can be. I can counter the examples given.

“While a list is being sorted, the effect of attempting to mutate, or even inspect, the list is undefined.”

- While the list is being sorted, any inspection or mutation could only be occuring in some other thread. Multiple threads are, by desogn, indeterminable.

“Formfeed characters occurring elsewhere in the leading whitespace have an undefined effect (for instance, they may reset the space count to zero).”

- This is caused by improper formatting of a text file. If the file is not formatted properly, you can’t expect magic its-OK-ness.

“super is undefined for implicit lookups using statements or operators such as “super(C, self)[name]””

- Undefined? I actually don’t agree. At least, not by the term “undefined” as used in this post. implicit lookups like this are looked up on the type of the object in question, which is the super builtin type, in this case. The methods are undefined in the sense that the type does not define them, so they don’t exist. You can’t look them up. This is not “undefined” as in not knowing the behavior.

“If the transformed name is extremely long (longer than 255 characters), implementation defined truncation may happen.”

- This is about private name mangling. The mangled names should be considered an implementation detail, you should never use or try to create the names manually, so any implementation specific differences are completely irrelevant.





Comments

Brian said…
You don't have to be in another thread to mutate a list when sorting. Consider things like the key or cmp arguments to list.sort. These can execute arbitrary code during the sort, so it would be perfectly possible (though rather silly) to give a callback that mutates the list.
Stan Seibert said…
Suppose you have a special cmp_using_list function which takes a list to define an ordering of arbitrary objects:

>>> cmp_using_list = lambda l,x,y: cmp(l.index(x), l.index(y))
>>> foo, bar, baz = list(), '', dict() # arbitrary objects
>>> ordering = [foo, bar, baz]
>>> mycmp = lambda x,y: cmp_using_list(ordering, x, y)
>>> mycmp(foo,foo)
0
>>> mycmp(foo,bar)
-1
>>> mycmp(baz,foo)
1
>>> sorted([foo, foo, baz, bar, baz, foo], cmp=mycmp)
[[], [], [], '', {}, {}]

So far so good, but now this statement is undefined:

>>> sorted(ordering, cmp=mycmp)

mycmp accesses ordering while ordering is being sorted. Of course, by construction, ordering is already sorted, so this happens to work anyway. (And, from a practical perspective, why would you ever need to do this?)
Stan Seibert said…
Hah, figures I would screw that example up. Of course, I should be using sort() instead of sorted() as sorted constructs a new list, thereby eliminating the self reference. If you try it, things do blow up:
>>> ordering.sort(cmp=mycmp)
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <lambda>
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <lambda>
ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list
Calvin Spealman said…
I found out why Stan's example blows up when I was toying with this myself. It looks like during sorting, the list is empty (at least in 2.5.1 CPython, so don't depend on it). Its probably an implementation that empties the list, holds an array of object pointers, sorts them, and refills the array. I suppose its to avoid the heavy GIL locking that would be needed to continually shift things about inside the list.
Marius said…
How about a simple example: the order of keys returned by a_dict.keys() is not defined in Python.

Popular posts from this blog

On Pruning Your Passions

We live in a hobby-rich world. There is no shortage of pastimes to grow a passion for. There is a shortage of one thing: time to indulge those passions. If you're someone who pours your heart into that one thing that makes your life worthwhile, that's a great deal. But, what if you've got no shortage of interests that draw your attention and you realize you will never have the time for all of them?

If I look at all the things I'd love to do with my life as a rose bush I'm tending, I realize that careful pruning is essential for the best outcome. This is a hard lesson to learn, because it can mean cutting beautiful flowers and watching the petals fall to the ground to wither. It has to be done.

I have a full time job that takes a lot of my mental energy. I have a wife and a son and family time is very important in my house. I try to read more, and I want to keep up with new developments in my career, and I'm trying to make time for simple, intentional relaxing t…

The Insidiousness of The Slow Solution

In software development, slow solutions can be worse than no progress at all. I'll even say its usually worse and if you find yourself making slow progress on a problem, consider stopping while you're a head.

Its easy to see why fast progress is better: either you solve the problem or you prove a proposed solution wrong and find a better one. Even a total standstill in pushing forward on a task or a bug or a request can force you to seek out new information or a second opinion.

Slow solutions, on the other hand, is kind of sneaky. Its insidious. Slow solution is related the Sunk Cost Fallacy, but maybe worse. Slow solutions have you constantly dripping more of your time, energy, and hope into a path that's still unproven, constantly digging a hole. Slow solutions are deceptive, because they still do offer real progress. It is hard to justify abandoning it or trying another route, because it is "working", technically.

We tend to romanticize the late night hacking…

Finding "One Game A Month"

I was really excited about the One Game A Month challenge as soon as I heard about it.
For about two years I've struggled in fits and starts to make my way into game development. This hasn't been productive in any of the ways I hoped when I started. Its really difficult to be fairly experienced as a developer, which I believe I am in my day job as a web developer, while struggling really hard at an area in which your experience just doesn't exist.
Its like being a pilot who doesn't know how to drive.

But this challenge provided a new breath to this little hobby of mine. It gave me a scaffolding to experiment, to learn, to reflect on finished projects. I had spent far too much time on game projects that stretched on far past their exciting phases, bogged down by bad decisions and regret.
And it has worked.
I have a lot to learn. I have a lot of experience to gain through trial and error and mistake and discovery. I have a lot of fun to be had making more small games t…